Post by stdaga on Sept 2, 2017 19:26:22 GMT
I have also questioned why Aerys called for Robert's head along with Ned's. Ned's kind of makes sense, but not Robert's.
I have speculated some wild and shiny tinfoil about this, which is that Ned and Robert might have both been hostages in the Vale, that Jon Arryn was holding them for Aerys in a mirror of Ned holding Theon for Robert). It seems that Aerys knew or thought he knew something about the Stark's to execute Rickard and Brandon, so it makes sense to want them all dead. By why not demand Benjen's head, too? I am certain for enough money, some northern house would have complied-the Bolton's, for instance. But he only demanded Ned's head, of the remaining Starks. Even if Lyanna was MIA, Aerys should have wanted all the Stark males dead. I am not trying to derail your theory with my tinfoil, but this "demand" from Aerys is something I have thought about as well.
Robert is the odd one. I base some of this on the wording used, about Jon Arryn sending "defiance" back to Aerys. It's not defiant to refuse a ridiculous order, but it would be defiance if you were supposed to follow a kings command based on prior arrangement, but didn't. For instance, if Ned refused to kill Theon after Robert demanded it, when everyone knew that was Ned's purpose in holding Theon, that would be defiance toward Robert.
Feudalism isn't set up so the King is absolute, just that the king is highest, and vassal's do have rights in a feudalistic society.
In an above post, shymaid , points out a comment about Stannis' stating that both his brothers wanted the Iron Throne, so that fits well with your theory that Robert was who this alliance wanted to crown. It's certainly possible at some point Robert wanted the throne, and when he got it, he found out it wasn't all fun and games! It was boring at times, and work all of the time.
But, if this alliance is determined to put a whole new house on the Iron Throne by conquest, it should not matter if Robert had Targaryen blood, or not. Any of the rebels could have been named king. Jon Arryn would have been a much better king that Robert! So would Ned!
The other thing that I have speculated is that Aerys never demanded Robert's head, and only Ned's. I think Jon Arryn was a very crafty dude, and if he was trying to orchestrate a rebellion, maybe he lied about Aerys demands. Maybe Aerys only demanded Ned's head, and Jon lied and included Robert in that request to help stir up turmoil. Ned and Robert were best friends, and might not go to war to save themselves, but they might go to war to save each other.
Another option is that Aerys never demanded either Ned or Robert's heads. It's possible. Not likely, but possible. I always felt it odd that all Aerys would want is a head, when he had proved that he liked to have captives that he could torture and burn for his arousal and enjoyment, so why not just demand that Ned and Bobby B be brought as prisoner's to KL to stand trial in front of Aerys. The whole thing stinks a bit, a fabrication to justify the means.
You very well could be correct about Robert being crowned king was the goal from the beginning, long before Lyanna disappeared.
I certainly read what you were saying was that Lyanna outright betrayed her family for selfish reasons. It's certainly possible, and GRRM does write in parallel's and so it would be an interesting parallel if Lyanna and Sansa did the same type of selfish thing. Both ended up losing father and brother to their actions, if that is the case.
However, GRRM also writes in inverse parallel's, so it's possible that nothing Lyanna did affected her family in this war. Not tattling on "the alliances" plans, not running away with Rhaegar, nothing. Who knows, I just know that GRRM is very tricky.
And I always question why everyone assumed that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert. We get one comment about Lyanna and Ned talking about Robert's bastard in the Vale, and that Ned claiming that Robert will change and that Lyanna seems to think this is unlikely. Maybe she just doesn't want her husband sleeping around, or creating bastards so casually. It does not mean she doesn't love him or want to marry him. Or want to marry him even if she loves another. Nothing in that comment relates to Lyanna not wanting to marry Robert.
And we also have no idea if she would not have wanted to be a queen. If we are using both Arya and Sansa to tell us Lyanna's story, Arya doesn't want to be queen and would do about anything to avoid it, while Sansa wants to be a queen and would do about anything to make it happen. How do we decide which way Lyanna would go?
I guess I don't follow you on why you think the gift of roses is how Rhaegar told Brandon he was not falling for his plot. Maybe I need to read over that section of your theory again. But if Brandon was as smart as you have claimed, then it doesn't make sense for him to lose his temper either, just because Rhaegar said "no" or "I'm on to your shenanigans". I think Brandon was highly insulted but not because his plan was denied. Or Brandon learned something he didn't know before that moment in regards to his sister.
It makes more sense to me that Rhaegar came to the Stark's for help in his plot aganist Aerys, the Starks said no (maybe because they had their own plan or not), and Rhaegar (maybe while investigating the the KOTLT) stumbles across some damning information that he can hold over the Starks, a message that only the Starks would understand, hence the crown is a warning! Either way we spin it, the crown is a warning and not a pledge of love or admiration!
If Rhaegar had a plan to call together the lords of Westeros to depose his father, if he knows that there is an alliance working against him, it makes sense to me that he actually would go ahead and call the council, put the other alliance on the spot, instead of hide from it. It's a risk either way, but at this point, the majority of Westeros would probably have preferred Rhaegar to Robert, and certainly preferred Rhaegar to Aerys! Probably the reason he didn't call this council at this time, was because Aerys came to Harrenhal and that is what messed with Rhaegar's plot. Aerys was just as suspicious of his son as he was of anyone else, and for good reason. Rhaegar was aplotting!
But did Aerys really ever change his mind about Jaime? And would Aerys believe that a 14 year old girl could unseat three men trained at war? You say it doesn't matter who the KOTLT was, just who was behind it, so theoretically, that person could be anyone, although, I agree that the squires of the knights did face Lyanna and that would bring attention to her.
But we already have an example of Aerys demanding Rickard Stark come to Kings Landing to answer for Brandon's crimes and another example of his demanding the head of another Stark, so why would he waste time kidnapping Lyanna? Why would he just not demand she be brought to Kings Landing to face charges?
I get that you place her at the crossroads but can you tell me how you think her wolf blood got her kidnapped at the crossroads? Was she not supposed to be there? Was she traveling without an escort or a small escort? Does it all come back to the theory of Lyanna being the KOTLT, as an example of the wolf blood? Ned certainly seems to think that the wolf blood lead to both Brandon and Lyanna's early deaths, but how?
Yes, I agree this is absolutely possible, but this wasn't part of your theory, correct? Did I just blow past it, because I don't remember this part. But it makes sense, and it a huge connection for Jon and Arthur. Except ultimately, Jon doesn't have a child with Ygritte because she dies, so it's only a partial parallel, but it still works with the story. It lends a lot of credence to ALJ, except for why does it have to be a secret?
I have always been partial to the idea that the toj falls on the route between Summerhall and Starfall, which is a huge indicator to me, that Rhaegars "love" was Ashara, and he called the place they met the tower of joy, because that is what it was to them as a couple. I pretty strongly feel Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's child, so it's easy to see things we like!
Interestingly, High Hermitage also falls on this path, and that is the home of Gerald "Darkstar" Dayne, who I think might have some interesting information about all of the business that happened at the toj.
Actually, I think this is one of the lies that Ned feels regret over when it comes to Robert. I think Ned knew where Lyanna was, or wasn't, but he didn't or couldn't tell Robert. Ned allowed Robert to believe that Lyanna was with Rhaegar. So it makes sense that Robert chases Rhaegar because he thinks Lyanna is with him. But I have always wondered at this battle. It's notable because it was the only conflict that we know of so far that the rebels lost (although, one can argue the siege Storms End was a bit of a loss, what with all the starving and death and all. Was Randyll Tarly that good, or maybe Robert was trying to draw the loyalist forces north to meet the large combined army of Stark/Tully/Arryn that was hanging north of the trident?
However, the idea of Robert pursuing Rhaegar works very well! I like it. It makes sense.
Jon as a Dayne is in my second tier of speculation for parentage. There are many things that work well if Arthur is Jon's father. I still question why it needs to be a secret? Is it really so important to protect Arthur Dayne's reputation, especially at the risk of your own? Ned, I am talking to you! Maybe if that was the only story the Dayne's would allow that let Ned bring Jon back to the north to be raised!
It really feels right to me if Jon and Dany both have a Dayne parent, although it's not my favorite parentage theory, at least for Jon, but it is poetic. Honestly, if the Sword of the Morning is supposed to be a Dayne, then it doesn't work for Jon Snow, or even Jon Sand. Unless he is a Dayne, but then we are dealing with another unknown marriage idea, and I don't like that. Jon's whole journey is about being a bastard and overcoming that in a world that isn't kind to bastards, and to suddenly be true born, would make me wonder what GRRM was up too. Why give us all this information about overcoming your birth if you are just going to mail in a secret marriage license in the end?
Unless, the Dayne blood is the only thing that is important? Then it really opens NAJ up again as well as ALJ. Such a sweet and complicated mess!
Also, part of me has felt for a long time that the Daynes could be a huge red herring in this story, and none of important characters have any Dayne blood. Maybe Darkstar, that sexy devil, is meant to wield Dawn? Unless he is a secret Targaryen?
Thanks for letting me bounce some ideas!