Post by danl on Jan 14, 2020 22:41:01 GMT
SAD is really a big mystery. We have several glimpses, but more questions than answers, I think
On way or another, Jon is a Stark of the North. Maybe not Ned's, but every clue we have says Jon is recognizable as a Stark, and as Ned's son.
I've generally tried to make Jon part of the swap, but haven't come up with a theory that I like, or even one that is vaguely satisfying. The closest to satisfying includes RLJ. Maybe I should explore more possibilities that don't include Jon in the swap
I really like this. There is an irony in the hidden prince turning out to be craven. There are great Rhaegar parallels. But there is definitely something unique about Gilly's baby; what about baby Samwell?
Yes, I have always assumed Targ blond. (Yes, I know . . .) What color are his eyes?
I have a picture in my head that is definitely dark hair; my picture is vague enough to allow a range of dark, but not blond. I'm really liking this, and having to re-work some things in my head to let it spin a bit
I think either possibility allows for some interesting twists:
If Randall knew, he was raising the prince who would eventually restore the rightful rule. But when the boy prince wasn't interested in warfare, what would he do? Force the issue, of course. And when the prince wants to take a vow to forsake his family, of course Randall would freak out. But when Randall finally realizes that this will never be a warrior, there is no purpose in continuing to raise a boy who is not his own.
If Randall didn't know, he might have suspected that someone had given him horns. The boy didn't look like him, didn't act like him, and was a shame to his family. So he treated him horribly
If he knew, would he have treated the child of Rhaegar horribly, in part it probably depends on who else knew. But in Randyll's eyes, the boy would have been a shame to Rhaegar
If there was a predetermined plan to send Jon to the Wall, it wasn't at that time. So the manipulation could have accelerated the plan. But if there was a babyswap, I have a hard time seeing a reason to reunite them as NW brothers.
Some outsiders feel sympathy for other outsiders, but usually only if there is a significant point of connection. Other outsiders are so absorbed in their own problems that they have little room for sympathy. Jon doesn't seem the sympathetic type to me early in the story. I may be misreading him and I know that Arya and the direwolves may be counter-examples, but his thoughts seem to be thoroughly focused on his own problems
I've always found it odd that Ned did relent. These aren't just wolves; they are giant wolves. And the training of these direwolves was put wholly in the control of the children, knowing that if any of them failed to properly train and control the wild animal, people could die. That risk causes me to wonder if we are missing something about Ned's thinking here
So it seems. But maybe it was Tywin's idea to save the children, or one of them, by presenting bodies that were destroyed and unrecognizable. Not wanting to leave a means of Targ restoration into Tywin's hands, Ned forces them to be sent to Dorne. No, I don't have any workings or machinations in mind and this may be nonsense, but it gets us to choosing between Tywin and a Viper.
I'm having difficulty figuring out how to pull in a threat from ice, unless Ned wanted to sacrifice a child (and then we really need to rethink). Or maybe the swap was before Robert's Rebellion and Rickard wanted a sacrifice. This might work with my notions that Lyanna died before RR and that Aerys had a reason for killing Rickard.
You know nothing, Jon Snow. The Wall is the division between North and South.
Are you meaning a life as a prince. I'm not sure being the son of Mance really means that much. There is definitely not any hereditary title among the Free Folk. And Mance doesn't mean much below the Wall, although among the Wildlings, maybe
Agreed. I was speaking broadly and yes, there would have been a still birth. But a child younger than a year or two seems likely
I guess I think Gilly knows what she is talking about. I think the Other was after the baby. But there isn't much to go on to support that, I suppose
I take Robert as trying to get the information by implying that he already has it. I don't think Ned has ever told Robert and I don't think Robert has a name. But Ned could be lying, there could be multiple Wyllas, or that may have simply been the first name that came to mind as something to say.
Edric certainly doesn't have any first hand information. And I don't think we should assume he has his facts correct. But it is his admiration that I think is huge
This doesn't make sense to me. I suppose he could assume Ned is an awesome warrior, to have defeated SAD. But there is more to it, it seems.
Ned returned the sword, which would be appreciated. But he killed two of their own, and prominent ones. Even if they were detestable individuals, they seemed respected in the kingdom and I don't think the Daynes would hold any great love for the person responsible for their deaths.
In much mythology, people who do heroic things often do outsized destructive things. Their greatness can move in either direction. SAD and/or Ashara may have done extraordinary good and evil.